Matt Grainger is the founder of Manly and Palm Beach Surf Schools and has grown his business from a one man band to a team of 45 in the summer months. In this episode he shares some of the secrets to the growth of his business and how he keeps his team and himself motivated.
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Christo: Welcome to another episode of the Basic Bananas small business marketing show. Today we have a very special guest, Matt Grainger. Matt is the owner and operator of Manly Surf School, Palm Beach Surf School and Collaroy/Long Reef Surf Schools in Sydney. Matt has grown his business from being a one man band, himself, teaching one-on-one surf lessons up to a team of around 45 staff each summer. On this episode, he shares some of the secrets to the growth of his business and also how he keeps himself and his team motivated. Cool, so welcome to the call, Matt. How ya‘ going?
Matt: Hi Christo. How are you?
Christo: Very good. Thank you for joining me today and a little secret for our listeners. Me and Matt have been good mates for a very long time. We‘re very good mates and so I know a lot about you, Matt, but for our listeners, is it cool if you could tell us a bit about where you started. Talk about yourself, obviously where you started and where you‘re at now with the Manly Surf School.
Matt: Yeah. Pretty much started coaching when I was like 13 years old at Collaroy Surf School down at Collaroy Beach, Warringah Council. And I was just an assistant coach, like dragging out boards. And I did that every summer, pretty much all the way until I was all through my HSC. Then did my HSC… After my HSC I wanted to get into recreational studies, tourism and then a degree at University of Technology, Sydney. And I did a Bachelor of Arts degree and majored in four studies. Tourism and accounting and all sweet stuff like that; Marketing. And then from there…
Christo: Weird stuff like that. I like it.
Matt: Real stuff.
Christo: Yeah.
Matt: The real stuff. And then I wanted to work as a recreational officer at Warringah Council. That was my goal but I didn‘t get a job; I wasn‘t good enough.
Christo: Oh, wow.
Matt: And then from there, I worked as a recreation officer working with disadvantaged kids. That was pretty cool. Devising all their recreation programs. And then, I was still doing surf school every summer as well because we‘d shut down for a month every Christmas. That was perfect so I could still work at Warringah Council.
Christo: Nice.
Matt: And then they had decided, yeah, like there‘s nothing at Manly and that was on the northern beaches. Manly‘s the most famous beach and most successful beach for tourists. There‘s no surf school there so I guess we started sending off letters to the council and it took about two years to get approval. And then from there we did our first school holidays and I had Grant Davis working with me and we just pretty much did the school holidays. It was pretty busy, actually. And then from there, after the holidays, but that‘s what our market was back then.
Christo: Yup. School holidays.
Matt: We didn‘t really have much of a… School holidays and a little bit of tourism. And then from there, I pretty much went to school and back; I worked back at Warringah Surf Shop but now I started to work a bit as well; a few jobs.
Christo: Ah, nice.
Matt: Did a bit of labouring.
Christo: It‘s good to hear.
Matt: That was good.
Christo: Yeah. It‘s good to hear because I know a lot of our clients especially that are out starting their own business and a lot of the listeners who would be listening I know have to kind of juggle a business and often kind of wonder whether they‘re doing the right thing. You know, whether they stick with it and work the odd jobs on the side as well. So it‘s good to hear that…
Matt: If you‘ve got the gall, you‘ve got the gall to get, so it doesn‘t matter about your ego. Not everything‘s going to be handed to you so, you got to do those other jobs to get the cash in; get your cash flow. And then in those lean times and then when you’ve got your busy times then pretty much by being around all the time, having your surf school, or my surf school, still being afloat but running. Having all these other jobs to pay the bills. Then people want a lesson, rather than just shutting it down. If I just shut it down then I‘d be back at square one come next summer. That was the goal to keep it going all year… Three-hundred and sixty-four days a year; we could still do it.
Christo: Awesome.
Matt: And then, yeah, then it was winter. I think it was that winter I got like 30 fish and foot out there man. Coming in at Dead Man I got smashed and my foot just hit this big… and that was kind of a good turning point because I couldn‘t surf for about six weeks. So I just really knuckled down and started doing a little marketing really hard and just getting… Looking at all different markets and how I could get involved and build the business. So I just started doing a lot of mail outs and back in the old days before social media. Mailing out, cold calling. That was more trying to drive the school businesses then; that was the goal. To get it so I could work all year, and that was that. And then we started to get a few schools and then it took probably about five years to get in business. Because it was profitable but it wasn‘t all year round. And it was primarily after the fifth year, we just started the schools. We‘re having all the school groups brought in, all that bread and butter at the same time.
Christo: Yeah. So expanding into different areas and not just teaching the kids in the school holidays any more but also teaching the high school students.
Matt: Yeah. People you work with have all these other different types of customers. Rather than just having one customer or just school holidays as well. Yeah, it was cool doing that and then from there I just built and built and built. Then we could start having… I started getting full-time staff rather than just me. Then I didn‘t have to do every lesson. Then I could build the business. So, that‘s just a hard turning point, I suppose, in any business. Well you still got to do all your day to day stuff, to walk away sometimes and have a look at what‘s happening. How you can build it. If you‘re a hairdresser and you‘re cutting hair all day, which is fine, but trying to build it. You‘re never going to do it if you do every haircut I suppose.
Christo: Yeah, that‘s right. If you‘re doing all the implementation. Good point.
Matt: Yeah. You can‘t really do it.. If you want to grow. If you don‘t want to grow that‘s fine. It‘s what you want to do, to grow to get people all year ‘round.
Christo: Yep. Definitely. Nice. And so what‘s the team up to now in summer? How many would you say you’ve got working away in peak season?
Matt: Yeah, there‘s about 40 people. About 45 crew.
Christo: Wow. It‘s awesome, eh.
Matt: It‘s full on that three-month period.. is just off the hook. And then I‘m lucky I‘ve got over a whole year… I‘ve got about a solid ten people going through winter now which is good. In that case the business is strong. That‘s been unreal having people being there like Nick. Nick and Shane have been working for us for over ten years which is unreal.
Christo: Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. So where would you say in terms of your business and maybe in terms of the growth as well, what‘s been most challenging and how have you kind of overcome them?
Matt: Yeah, probably the most challenging would be… I‘ve been lucky with good staff. I suppose staff… Just juggling when you start. They‘re awesome, they‘re unreal, you know. But I think because we‘ve always trained people from the day job all the way through so they know every aspect of the business; that‘s probably the key. And then the hardest… It‘s probably a fringe staff which is trying to keep them tight and thinking the same as you do and your core members team. That‘s probably with any business because they‘re not. They love what they‘re doing but they‘re still not 100% yet trained or know the business. But that‘s a solid crew; cash flow is hard in winter for my business. But you just got to say… You‘ve got to hoard it away ready for winter. You can‘t spend it all. Try to be strategic with your money, too. Probably the best thing, too, is also investing in the end of every season, investing in more equipment. Doing it then. Like forcing myself to get new boards, new new cars, new trucks, new trailers. And then the next year is easier again. It gets easier and easier. Probably the first couple of seasons when we had to make that step. Making that step of when… Do I do it or don‘t I do it?
Christo: That‘s right.
Matt: Do I put it on my home line or put it in my business or… What do you do?
Christo: Yeah, right. So finding the balance. So how do you stay motivated? What‘s been your… Any secrets or anything you could share on actual motivation in keeping the fun in the business?
Matt: That‘s giving my secret away. No, I‘m just a born; so I‘ve got energy. You‘ve got to have lots.. Yeah, you‘ve got to have energy and not… And just go and chip away all day and having fun with it in the daylight. Getting in at 7:00 and leaving at 7:00. But there‘s nothing fun in the middle of the day.
Christo: Yeah, exactly.
Matt: Something fun in the middle of the day. You go for a surf, go to yoga. Do some sort of sport. I think if you mixed your day up otherwise your business takes over and you just… And you start hating it. And pretty much keep doing what you want to do. Like when I was working with you, remember we started doing bookwork and we were like… “Hey, this is what we didn‘t start this for.” So you‘ve got to pull away and go back in… And now it should be like four hours admin a day and four hours coaching rather than eight hours admin.
Christo: Great. So you get out there in the water.
Matt: Yeah. If I did eight hours admin I‘d probably commit suicide.
Christo: Go crazy. That‘s a bit extreme. A bit extreme.
Matt: No, that extreme.
Christo: No, that‘s good. I like it. It‘s a good point and getting out there because you‘re the one driving the business.
Matt: Yeah and then you‘ll lose why we started it and you can lose why you want to do it. When you just become the admin person and you actually… And then you don‘t know what‘s happening on the ground. You don‘t know if the boards are damaged. You don‘t know if the clients are happy or unhappy. You don‘t know if your staff are unhappy or happy. You‘re not servicing the clients or yourself. You just sort of… Yeah, it‘s like… I don‘t know if you‘ve seen that TV show. It‘s pretty cool where the CEO goes in and works every facet of the business.
Christo: Yeah. Yeah. It‘s classic.
Matt: If everyone did that.
Christo: Good point. Very good point
Yeah. What about your team? So mentioned your team… Obviously, you know, you get in there and work with them, but everybody at Manly Surf School kind of gets along like good mates and I know of a lot of businesses who would envy you in that kind of position. It‘s like they‘re an army of… They‘re out there always promoting the business at every opportunity. And then obviously a lot of respect for you because I‘ve seen it firsthand. Any ideas on keeping the balance between friendships and being really close and being friends with the staff, but also maintaining that kind of the leadership position in a business.
Matt: Yeah, it‘s super-hard. But, probably I‘ve always said I‘m never better than anyone. And then don‘t even call me your boss. A top-down kind of hierarchy but I don‘t know.. some companies it probably works for, but for me it doesn‘t. Think as possible works really well… The guys that control the shops, or girls that control the shops. But you give people a bit of free rein and they can think for themselves. It makes their job better for them because they‘re enjoying it. They‘re actually going out to work and getting challenged. But they‘re told how to do everything to the nth degree sometimes it‘s a little bit painful for them and painful for me. So giving people options to think for themselves I reckon. I think you‘d probably agree to that Chris?
Christo: Yeah, totally. Exactly right… Spot on. So people can do their own but also you‘re in there firsthand so you know what‘s going on as well.
Matt: And just having regular meetings and regular chats.
Christo: Yeah, I was going to say that. Is there any process for kind of keeping the communication open? I know this might be the process to…
Matt: Probably always talking with the head guys daily. Just checking in daily with them. And then you have a little team bonding session when we have the time before every session just have a quick de-brief of what‘s expected. And that works really well.
Christo: Okay. Awesome.
Matt: Informed as well as knowing what‘s happening.
Christo: Yeah, right, so everyone knows what‘s going on in the daily check-in. So what about marketing? How do you market the surf school?
Matt: What ways?
Christo: Yeah. What methods, I guess for the listeners to know, like what do you do in terms of marketing the surf school and what‘s probably been most effective, I guess, for you in terms of marketing.
Matt: It‘s pretty much changed over the years, it‘s changed heaps. Now it‘s a lot of Internet. Like a lot of Internet there now. My printing spend has gone down big time; magazines and tourist magazines. I‘ve actually used up all that right back and little actually just pulled it all off, see what happened in my business. It actually made no dent, really. And now I‘ve gone back to the… I kept the Official Guide… That‘s a solid one. But all the other stuff I got rid of, a crazy decision to make but… Yeah, that was… I still do the main one, that comes in the airports. I know all the travelers pick that up. I know myself when I‘m traveling I like getting guides and maps but you can go overboard; pretty much Internet, PR, TV shows, have been like a god-send. Like you couldn’t get that PR… We‘re getting 2 million viewers a year; or a season. So that‘s pretty crazy. So it‘s been pretty easy to cut back our advertising in other areas because that‘s so strong there. The local papers have been awesome with us… Some ways more than others. There was one that‘s pretty cool. Yeah and then your basic brochures all that sort of collateral stuff works well. And just probably word-of-mouth. I‘ve been working really hard with word-of-mouth. Probably two years since I have been more in working in the water knowing that great experience. They‘re going to go tell someone. If they‘re going to walk away with a bad experience, they‘re going to bad mouth you big time. So that‘s working on our ratios now with ratios down especially school holidays are pretty much one to four. Where it used to be about one to seven or one to eight. So then the parents.. Tourist stream is always on the beach now. School groups have been going down to one to eight. Just knowing that they‘re coming back every year as well as much money, but, you do a good job, they‘re always going to come back and you‘ve got those clients already. If you can keep existing clients you‘re killing it whereas… That‘s what we‘re really working hard on at the moment. That‘s really working well.
Christo: Awesome. You said that because it‘s a lot of people when they’re kind of starting out I know probably some listeners, too, might think about trying to make a quick sale and trying to get as much kind of cash in the bank that‘s, as you‘ve mentioned, been in business for 15 years. You get the guys coming back and you‘re going to get the repeat business. So it‘s about looking after them and nurturing the relationships and, as you said, doing the best job.
Matt: That‘s pretty much it. You just spend a bit more time with them. It‘s just time. Or you‘re putting more staff on them. It might cost you more in staffing, but it works out because people come back. And you‘ve already got them. You‘re taking all that time to get that customer. Then you do a bad… A bad style or something wrong by them and then you‘ve lost them. There he goes.
Christo: That‘s right. And they‘ll tell their friends about it and although they‘ll either tell their friends to go join in the fun or stay clear. So it‘s going to benefit in more ways than just that customer as well. Very cool. Cool. I know this might kind of put you on the spot a little bit, but what do you think would have been the funniest or weirdest thing that‘s ever happened in your business?
Matt: Oh, yeah, mate. What incidents or?
Christo: I‘ll leave it to you.
Matt: There‘s been heaps. There‘s been so many. There‘s some crazy stuff going on.
Christo: I know you guys have done a lot of weird stuff with the TV show, too. I‘ve seen… You went up in the Red Bull flight when the guys trying to…
Matt: Yeah the guy in the Red Bull plane. That was awesome. Riding a bull. The TV shows open up some really cool stuff for us. We went roller derby the other week.
Christo: How nice.
Matt: That was all fine.
Christo: Get your tights on.
Matt: Yeah. It was cool. Nick got smashed. Damaged his ankle. What else? I met Ben Robert Smith the other day, that was unbelievable. The guy‘s that‘s got the VC recipient. He got the Victoria Cross.
Christo: Awesome.
Matt: That was a highlight.
Christo: Yeah, right.
Matt: Also, yeah, he‘s a great guy.
Christo: Awesome.
Matt: What else? Also the other day that was pretty cool… Oh, we surfed the river bank the other day. That was insane. We surfed… We had a stroller boat gunning along the river bank.
Christo: Oh. Wow. That‘s awesome.
Matt: That was pretty cool. Look that up on YouTube for you Chris, eh?
Christo: Yeah, that would be awesome. Sounds good. And what would you say if you had one tip for the listeners for other small business owners or people kind of wanting to make it their business. What would it be?
Matt: Probably be good to your staff. Yeah, treating them how you want to be treated if you were working. That was… If you were at a job. Pretend you‘re actually getting employed by yourself. And then also pretend that you‘re actually going to experience at your business. And buying a product or doing a service. How would you feel. And maybe the third. The third one is try something new. Like go and try something different totally out of your comfort zone and see what it feels like. With me with coaching because it‘s pretty… now but it was hard when you started and you forgot how hard it was. So get out and do something that‘s totally out of your comfort zone and you then go, “Oh, wow that‘s hard.” Brings you back to when you started your business and all that sort of stuff.
Christo: Awesome. Cool. Well, thanks…
Matt: And have fun.
Christo: Yeah.
Matt: Have a laugh.
Christo: Excellent.
That‘s one of the keys I reckon. You‘ve got to enjoy it. You mentioned that earlier how you‘ve got to have fun in your day and that‘s awesome. So some great, good gold nuggets in here mate. Thanks for sharing everything.
Matt: Thanks Chris.